I agree that the poll was not phrased fairly. The third option should be: I am opposed to a deer hunt.

Some Union county residents are not confidant in the source of the data that the county has compiled and released to the public and therefore are not convinced that any intervention is even necessary in managing the deer.

Russ, In reply to your comments, I am not advocating any "remedy" for the deer because I am not convinced there is a problem. I was just revealing that not every study you directed me towards proposes killing deer and some definitely have an agenda for personal gain (farming, lumber, hunting).

As far as conservation, I would be more supportive of conservationists if I didn't see so much hypocrisy. If they want to "conserve" why do they drive gas guzzling SUVs and own energy sucking, oversized houses. The are paid consultants hired by the county and do it for the money. If they denied there was a problem what would be the point of having them come back year after year to address something that was not a problem. They would not be necessary and there goes that source of income for them.

The terms I mentioned that are used to scare people into supporting killing the deer don't frighten me at all but there are a lot of gullible people who will believe anything they hear. Deer are "decimating the forests". How did the forests survive all those decades without a cull. It has been centuries since there were predators in these parts. I still see plenty of green and plenty of trees in the parks. I guess only to the trained eye can one see the disappearance of plants, but if it takes a trained eye how bad a loss can it be?

You have to draw a line in the sand on how far one is willing to go in the name of preservation. Killing is mine.

You are the most NAIVE person in the State Of NJ. You let these deer overpopulate they will ALL die of starvation and ruin the natural ecosystems in the Reservations.

Dear John, You are brainwashed. There has never been any incidents of deer dying of starvation and the ecosystems in the Reservations would be fine if left as they have been for decades without killing deer. You are a victim of the eco-terrorists putting out false information for their paranoid beliefs.

Yeah, John... you know, those crazy, paranoid eco-terrorists at:

Countless govt entities (a few ex. here):
- http://tinyurl.com/mdkcft
- http://tinyurl.com/alkbz29
- http://tinyurl.com/ngqrav
Countless academic/research entities (a few ex. here):
- http://tinyurl.com/9wjus6v
- http://tinyurl.com/a7hfcka
- http://tinyurl.com/b3k3o2s
- http://tinyurl.com/9wqmb5z (and look at those uber-terrorist sponsors on this one... Nature Conservancy, Department of Forestry, Farm Bureau)
NBC: http://tinyurl.com/d7yce66
Wikipedia: http://tinyurl.com/4xs2yt (Sunny, as I'm sure you know, Wikipedia works on the basis of open editing, so perhaps you need to propose edits?)
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Two drums and a Red Flyer... children and their bandwagons.

Gee Russ, I guess I could pull up half a dozen sites that dispute all the conservationist/pro-hunting sites that you pulled up and it could go on and on. The bottom line is I don't believe in killing deer in the name of conservation, oh and by the way, neither did the founder of the Sierra Club, John Muir. I guess I was taught different morals and ethics than you obviously.

Sunny... I think it's the hyperboles you use, more than anything, that troubles me. It was your choice to use "eco-terrorist", "paranoid" and "pro-hunter".

How do you lump the following entities into those gross over-statements?

- State of New York - Dept. of Environmental Conservation
- City of Bloomigton, IN
- State of Texas - Parks & Wildlife Division
- SUNY Binghamton
- PHYS.org
- Tufts University
- Purdue University
- NBC News
- Wikipedia

If you want to say that hunting doesn't fit with you morals and ethics, just say that.

By the way, I am a fan of John Muir and the work he did. Given what a wise man he was, (and the fact that he died 99 years ago), you'd have a hard time convincing me that, if he could join us today, he would refuse to consider the 99 years of science and history since his death. His dear Sierra Club has considered it:

"Acceptable management approaches include both regulated, periodic hunting and fishing when based on sufficient scientifically valid biological data"

If you want to say that hunting doesn't fit with you morals and ethics, just say that.

I must admit, those deer are tasty. The Indians killed them and thanked their spirit for the nourishment they provided. I do the same and with all animals I consume, including the chickens from Shoprite. I do the same with the pigs and cows I have raised for me on a farm for slaughter. All natural, no preservatives. Like the deer.

Russ I did look up the sites that you highlighted and found many of the sponsors of the studies were profit driven and would benefit by the extermination and/or hunting of deer, such as farm industries, timber industries, Government Fish and Game agencies (supported by hunters and hunting licenses) so I did not find them unbiased. The colleges that were highlighted and did studies on deer populations advocated using sterilization and contraception methods as a means of population control.

As far as me using the terms terrorist and paranoia, the proponents of the deer kill do use fear to get support for it. Using phrases such as deer auto collisions, lyme disease and deforestation all to instill fear in the public for their purposes.

Conservationists are pro-hunting. It is well known that conservationists support hunting and hunters support conservationists for the purpose of conserving land... TO HUNT ON.

So read up about John Muir and you will see he did not support killing wildlife in the name of conservation and there are many like him in our community that feel the same way.

Oh Sunny, this is like playing whack-a-mole.

I replied to the singular assertion you made in your first reply, and I am trying to keep you on it. You were clear that NO intervention is needed because there is no problem. Now you are advocating sterilization and contraception. If there is no problem, then why is any remedy needed?

If you want to say that hunting doesn't fit with your morals and ethics, just say that.

If you want to acknowledge your own paranoia, that might be even more cathartic... but I'm not holding my breath (apparently every scientist who ever concluded there is a case for managed deer harvests is a puppet of a sinister master who wants to exterminate deer?)

As for Mr. Muir... you completely missed my point. Many of his ideas and ideals were stellar, but with the human population having increased from 1.8B to 7.0B since his death, I would suggest that you'd do much more good for all living things if you'd get with the conservation program. Even dear Mother Nature doesn't seem to be much of a preservationist.

And I just have to ask... do you really break into a cold sweat when you read "deer auto collisions", "lyme disease" or "deforestation"? Do you seriously consider those terms and assertions to be terroristic?

Interesting concept.....

Wow Lenapee. Get over yourself. You're not that humorous or informative.

Then you would also support use of the term "pro-abortion" over "pro-choice". Good. That's fair.

But seriously, this is the age of euphamisms. The federal government doesn't have a spending problem. Etc.

Agree completely. Well said.

Perhaps you observed sick deer. There are diseases in the area that kill deer such as Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease (not harmful to humans unless perhaps by consuming the meat) which can decimate a herd (another reason not to have a cull). Nature has a way of taking care of itself without humans intervening with guns. The strongest will survive.

There are many types of plantings that discourage foraging by deer. A quick on-line search will give suggestions of what cultivar to use. Fencing and obstacles are also available to reduce damage. I am always pleased when I see deer or other creatures in my yard, but I have taken common sense precautions to avoid damage to my vegetables and fruits. The problem I most often have with them is while driving on the Martine Extension, but even there the human drivers are more trouble.
Since the deer obviously were residents before you were, why did you move to that particular location? And do you find the dampness from the swamp a problem?

I don't live near the swamp. I moved to my house several decades ago when there were woods at the end of my street and no deer on my property. I'm not against building homes, but before the towns gives permits to destroy ecosystems, they should be sure there are others to take their place. I have a fence; I plant 'deer-safe' flowers and vegetables, but that limits me from planting what I want to plant. I'm not advocating culling/killing; I would rather see the deer moved to the Watchung reservation or some other place where there's food and little chance for them to destroy personal property.

So move. The deer would probably like the people removed - and they were there first.

Completely inappropriate comment, Pete. And the mosquito came along earlier. You can think what you want, but I will never believe that animals are above humans.

Inappropriate? Says who? Get over yourself. If you don't like nature, move away from it.

I vote we remove the people who don't like the deer and keep the deer.

That is true Karen. I don't know how the "deer tick" was so named when it uses any animal - birds, squirrels, rabbits. I sometimes think our great legislators came up with the deer cause lyme disease idea as an excuse to eradicate them.

Lenapee Tree - I drive along the Martine extension every day - often as dusk - so I can relate to what you said about the deer in that area. I also see deer roaming around near the shoulder of the Parkway, usually near the Clark exit.
Has anyone ever had a collision with a deer that damaged your vehicle, or have you found that it hasn't been a huge problem? Just curious.

I don't get the impression there is much appreciation for science in this thread... nor for logic or dispassionate discourse. The county clearly states four objectives of the harvesting, with controlling the spread of Lyme disease listed last.

For those interested in fact rather than emotion, this particular subject is not difficult to delve into via Google. There are more than adequate results from neutral perspectives (I personally didn't find PETA or the NRA to be terribly interesting sources!) A few examples:
A primer on the 'target': http://tinyurl.com/4xs2yt (see paragraph on 'Human Interactions')
On over-browsing (from MSNBC, no less): http://tinyurl.com/d7yce66 (see paragraph on 'Deer Eat Away Future Forest')
On eating venison in Lyme country: http://tinyurl.com/czdkbhw (see closing paragraph)
On "Meahwhile more guns. Great"... my own two cents is that is emotive babble. I see mention of 30 hunters in the article, and will go out on a limb here with my own supposition: not one of these experienced hunters bought new gun to participate. And by the way, Karen... you are tipping your hand on where you really stand, which might be a little more extreme than what NJ Residents for Action states as its aim. I actually support much of what the group STATES as its aim... but I am loathe to support the group, as many of you give yourselves away as wanting much more. I'm curious to know what you dislike about the guns used in Union County's harvest?

Karen you are both right and wrong. Mice are the reservoir for the Lyme spirochete and that is where the ticks get it from. But the deer are needed to complete the life cycle of the tick. The adult ticks emerge during the rut and they will mate and feed while on the deer.

I say we bring back firing squads. Any body have a problem with that? Killing with guns isn't inhumane enough? Then we can kill them even slower with arrows.

I say we just ban people who complain about deer.

You're talking about what? Mountain Lions killing the occasional deer? Wolves taking injured and diseased deer? So because people have interfered and killed those predators, people should continue interfering and continue the killing?

The real problem is people. Birth control would be a start.

LOL! How can anyone possiby know how many deer were here when Columbus got here??? At any rate what we CAN say for sure is that there was no development in the area and the deer had free range. Now, we have taken the space that they used to be able to roam freely. That's progress of course but it's sad that these lovely, harmless creatures have to be slaughtered in the name of OUR progress.

I vote for citizens concerned about deer and not their own selfish concerns.

Dan Bernier lived or still lives in housing in Watchung Reservation. Do you think this may have anything to do with the high number of kills in that reservation? It does seem odd that more deer were killed there, including the RARE WHITE DEER they killed in the past. It's all about conservation folks.

I think predators in your backyard is a great idea. Just keep them fenced in please.

Your point it well taken Reality but there is one element to the sad situation that you did not go into but did mention in your first paragraph - suburban sprawl. Stop the building. Do we really need another mall, another highway, another office complex?

I'll chip in for your ticket.

They may call themselves hunters, but what they did in Union County is more like slaughter. The white deer has strong symbolic meaning and they should have left it and the deer it was with alone.

Couldn't agree more.

Great dispassionate post, Richard. Thank you.

Let me save you multiple iterations with Sunny "I love hyperbole" Forrest. You can ultimately get her/him to admit that she/he just doesn't like hunting... but along the way you're going to be told that what you have observed is simply your over-active imagination being influenced by the "Eco-terrorists" and "slaughter managers" who want to exterminate all deer. If you press hard enough, you'll also be enlightened by fascinating gems such as... anyone who supports conservation drives a gas guzzling SUV and lives in a house that is too big (because preservationism is the only place it's at, dude!) The added fun-bonus will be if Karen Egert goes all ALL CAPS on your baloney about over-browsing!

Richard (pay no attention to that man behind the curtain he is upset because I called him on his gas guzzler and energy sucking house, another hypocrite "conservationist), anyway, I believe your first instincts were correct. You are a compassionate human being and familiar with the local deer and maybe even admired them from your yard.

What happens is people, many of whom are on this thread, become desensitized to the violence that is taking place literally right in their backyards. Some people are not very sensitive to begin with and probably never witnessed death or suffering but see stories about it on TV and eventually just don't look at the people (or animals) as living beings anymore.

I am sad to see that you have become desensitized to the slaughter.

Russ, not believing biased "conservationist" studies and not liking hunting are not mutually exclusive. I don't like hunting and I am not convinced that there is a need to cull (you probably like that word, don't you) the deer. I am sure while you are feverishly searching the internet for pro-culling articles you might have come across a few that do not support it. You have your ideas about how things should be done and I have mine. I have a heart and you....like plants. Good luck with your begonias this year.

Deer Sunny... do you also lump Mr. Muir's Sierra Club into your whacky classification of "biased 'conservationists'"? You realize that their science doesn't agree with you, right? (and if you care to reply, please stay on point... that left unchecked, a herd can become a problem to its own ecosystem).

You also ignored Richard's entire point about the Watchung ecosystem, apparently overwhelmed by your sadness at how desensitized this wise gentleman is.

No Russ, You are not getting my point that one of the first and greatest conservationists of all time realized that killing wildlife defeats one of the main purposes of a conservationist group which is to preserve nature for it's inhabitants i.e. the deer.

I have said it over and over again and I am running out of ways to say it and that is, I am not convinced and you will not get me to ever agree that killing wildlife in the name of conservation is necessary, period.

Just attempting to speak your language(s) Mike per phil "deer lovers are as ignorant" and I don't think I used the term "bloodthirsty" or "animal haters".

Turnaround IS fair play. I guess you are not used to people disagreeing with you.

Hi Karen, I am assuming your expertise on the ecology of Union County is as outstanding your expertise on Lyme disease. If so, I would be particularly keen to understand the facts behind your eloquent assertions of "mumbo-jumbo" and "baloney" with respect to the primary reason Union County conducts its annual Deer Management Program. Thanks.

Russ, January 24 2013 NY Times Environment section, Predators, Prey and Lyme Disease. Dr. Taal Levi Ecologist at Cary Institute of Ecosystems New York, did his doctoral University of Cal. at Santa Cruz on Lyme and was lead author of a study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science states that "deer are not significant transmitter of B. Borgdorferi bacteria". The article goes on to state that in his findings "they detected no significant relationship between the numbers of deer and numbers of Lyme disease". If you want to dispute these findings I suggest you contact the National Institute of Science.

Sunny, you are obfuscating (popping up) again. You know my point continues to be about the county's primary reason for conducting these management hunts... the impact on the ecosystem... and you keep avoiding it.

Given that you are on the record as holding a belief (which I respect as your belief) that killing wildlife is never acceptable ("Period."), you are in a disadvantaged position in this debate, as you have admitted you bring a bias.

If you want to reply, please stick to the point on the ecosystem. Before we get to Union County, it would be helpful to both of us if you would state whether or not you accept the Sierra Club's position that real world situations exist in which managed hunting (and fishing) are necessary conservation tools. (I assume you know who founded the Sierra Club?)

If you do not accept that, then we should be able to agree that our debate is pointless. If you do, then we can continue... and we should THEN come to the specifics of Union County's four stated objectives, starting with the ecosystem. (Was it you or Karen who called the ecosystem objective "baloney" and "mumbo jumbo"? Forgive me, I get confused on who is who!)

Russ, you brought up lyme in your comment to karen, so now it is part of the topic. I also get all the single syllable male names who use provocative, abrasive wording to try and and get a negative reaction from their adversaries mixed up too.

As far as being biased because I don't believe in killing wildlife there are other methods of managing wildlife populations without using lethal methods. However, I still am not convinced that any intervention is necessary and perhaps even harmful to the ecosystems we are speaking of.

Now Biggie, It seems that you are not familiar with the workings of higher education but you can actually study things that do not exist in your home surroundings. Imagine that.

I would be curious to see who would be lined up to eat venison anywhere. My guess is the line would be pretty short or non-existent. All the more for you, Biggie.

Mike, you want people to agree with you and if you don't get them to do that then that is the end of the discussion. You have your opinion and I have mine. It is as simple as that. Not everyone is going to agree that using lethal methods to control wildlife is either good or necessary in all cases. This thread's discussion is what that is all it is about. Two mindsets that don't agree. I will not convince you and you obviously did not convince me. Good luck trying to convince the other non-agreers.

Indeed, they "ALSO" do.
Over and out.